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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/21/2010 12:07:04 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Yet it remains that there are churches and denominations out there who will say it is OK for a minister to leave his or her spouse for the work of the Lord. How backwards is that? What sense does it make to love the work of God more than the God of the work?
Quote above from the article (which was a little hard to read with the attack of the advertisers...but anyway)
Probably not just denominations. I think for some, it is an escape FROM their marriages and that can never be right.
If you cannot be a Christian in your marriage, I really am not interested in what you have to say outside of it.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/21/2010 2:16:27 PM
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rcjames
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Well Scripture is very plain about the purpose of Church (gathering of the Saints);
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Eph 4:13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
So it would seem to me that if a couple is having maritial problems they should run to Church and grow into the image of Christ, get over themselves, and treat their spouses in the manner prescribed by Scripture.
Running from Chuch would only increase the problems and the selfishness (which is the root of all maritial problems).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 7:44:33 AM
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DaveW
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Back in the days when I was a kid and there were few women in the workplace, the prevailing attitude of most industries was that the worker was there to work no matter what, and if he was 'distracted' by family or personal matters, could be dismissed. (I knew a few who were fired)
The same attitude infused the churches. It led many pastors and other church workers to have marital problems. The congregation I attended in college and for several years after (as I went to work in that same city) had the opinion that everyone in the congregation was to serve the church and its leaders. I overheard one of the asst pastors say something like this:
"How can we make the people understand what the priorities are:
1 - God.
2 - family.
3 - ministry.
4 - your secular job.
AND - how do we get them to understand that 'family' is not your wife and kids but your congregation?"
After I left that congregation and moved away I found myself as an elder and worship leader in a small congregation and worked 55-60 hours a week in my job. My church responsibilities took about 25 hours a week. That left very little time for either my wife and kids or sleep.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 8:07:48 AM
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Grace71
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The Bible says if a man can't take care of his household how can he care for the church, so I agree. I attended a church that called to ask a man why he wasn't in church one Sunday. He had told them his wife had a miscarriage. They said to him, "well you can still be here. There's nothing wrong with you." A church should never expect a person to put the church before the needs of the family. I wonder if those ministers/pastors who have fallen into sin have done so due to so much time spent in their ministry instead of putting their marriage or family first.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 9:49:09 AM
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DeliveredDarling
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God didn't make his mandates difficult. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you".
We make it difficult. If God tells you to go, you go. Trust that He knows what He is doing and be obedient.
We mess up when we start questioning Him and thinking we somehow know what is better for us.
If your marriage is in trouble, run to the Counselor, not into hiding masked by ministry....that is trouble waiting to happen.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 9:57:11 AM
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ppodmama
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quote:
I wonder if those ministers/pastors who have fallen into sin have done so due to so much time spent in their ministry instead of putting their marriage or family first.
@grace71
Yes, I do believe this and I just think it's a blindspot. I saw it at church a couple of weeks ago. One of our pastors and his wife (both employed by the church, wife is in charge of children's ministries) were at a fellowship event. While speaking to them I found out that their 16 year old special needs daughter was sick with the stomach flu and they both showed up to the event! They left her home alone because the "had" to be at the event.
I know these are two very loving people, they just can't see it.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 11:29:44 AM
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therooster
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And yet, how many of us pastors contribute to this idea of putting the family on the back burner for church activities by planning a billion church things a week (which usually involving splitting the family into age groups), encouraging our congregations to avoid friendships outside the church so they can be holier (which sounds scarily like a pharisee talking) or recruiting the same volunteers over and over again because it's easier on us, never mind that they get pulled farther from their family because of it?
If I'm a pastor with any voice at all into the married people in my church, then any marriages that are sacrificing their health for the church can assign at least some of the blame to me.
_____________________________
Zealous men often confuse purity with intolerance.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 2:15:08 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello ppodmama
If believers actually have a relationship with the Lord, those things Will Not occur that you cited in the article. So, start there. Being a Christian involved a relationship with the Lord. All other things are an outgrowth of that relationship.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 5:18:35 PM
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Eutychus
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One of the saddest passages in te OT to me is the story of Samuel when he appointed his sons as judges over Israel in 1 Samuel 8. It says that "His sons, however, did not walk in his ways, but turned aside after dishonest gain and took bribes and perverted justice."
As a result, Israel demanded and got their first king, preferring his possble demands over the rule of Samuel's evil sons.
Nobody can question the fervor of Samuel, but I wonder if he neglected his family in the process.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 5:37:09 PM
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buckifn
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Yes, it does happen at my church. It has been addressed before, and changes were made, but the old patterns slip back in so easily.
Sometimes it is hard to get an individual to see the destruction this is causing to his/her marriage and family.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 6:03:53 PM
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ppodmama
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@Eutychus
What an excellent point and biblical example! 5 stars for you!
As I re-read my response to grace71, I just saw another irony in it...the pastors wife is the head of the children's ministry. Yet, their child is home alone ill. I just don't believe there is any ministry that require us to sacrifice the love and care we need to show them I do wonder if this is one of the reasons marriages in the church fall away to divorce at the same rate as the national average.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 6:05:22 PM
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ppodmama
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@buckifin...I see that too...we have the annual BUSYNESS sermon at the beginning of the year, then 11 months of promoted programming from upfront about every living ministry imaginable, except for marriage and family..HUGE BLINDSPOTS.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/22/2010 6:24:54 PM
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Grace71
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I think someone said this but not sure...but the same people are always doing the work/ministry. There was an example that said in a church of 200 there are only 25 who do all the work. My pastor has had to tell people he didn't want them to do it because they already were doing enough. There are people who love to serve and feel like 'if I don't do it no one will'. While it is a good thought on the surface, the consequences can be terrible.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/23/2010 8:51:24 AM
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buckifn
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I wanted to add this as a case in point. We (members and Elder's) give our Pastor and his wife 2 weekend retreat packages per year at various places less than 200 miles away (their preference) which doesn't seem like a lot to us, but for them it hasn't failed yet that the comment has been made "well I guess I can't be here next weekend" our gift certificates will be expired."
How much more can you do without hitting someone in the head with a baseball bat, ya know?
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/23/2010 9:00:12 AM
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ppodmama
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Buckifin,
I think it is marvelous what you do for your pastor. Paid staff at our church is really taken care of well with lots of paid time off and such and even sabaticals. It is the Elder Board and ministry leaders where I see the issue. Many are working full time jobs, have kids and extended family in the area. Yet they get heaped on with more responsibilites ALWAYS.
When my husband first became an elder they met twice a month with major meetings during budget time...in the 3 years he was on the board these duties were added;
Serving Communion for two services (requiring 4 hours at church)
Membership interviews
Being Available for prayer after services
Contacting members of the church for surveys
Visiting ill members
2 Retreats
A building project
Mediating a HUGE dispute between Pastors which required endless meetings
Expected participation in all church-wide fellowship events
Teaching a Sunday School or Faith Growing class
Being Told by a paid staff pastor that "your service as elder shouldn't be your only service to the church"
....no support like that for these guys at all.
< Message edited by ppodmama -- 2/23/2010 9:07:56 AM >
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/25/2010 2:24:46 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4124
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
The Bible says if a man can't take care of his household how can he care for the church, so I agree. I attended a church that called to ask a man why he wasn't in church one Sunday. He had told them his wife had a miscarriage. They said to him, "well you can still be here. There's nothing wrong with you." A church should never expect a person to put the church before the needs of the family. Some churches teach that to miss a service is to be in sin and lose your salvation.
I remember some people back when i was a kid that were so afraid of being in a hospital on Sunday morning and dying and going to hell because they missed the service.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/25/2010 2:27:30 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4124
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Grace71
I think someone said this but not sure...but the same people are always doing the work/ministry. There was an example that said in a church of 200 there are only 25 who do all the work. My pastor has had to tell people he didn't want them to do it because they already were doing enough.
It is called the 80-20 principle and it works 2 ways:
80% of the work of the church is done by 20% of the people at the top end
80% of the resources of the church (time, $$) are taken up by 20% of the people at the bottom end.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/25/2010 2:29:18 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4124
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Nobody can question the fervor of Samuel, but I wonder if he neglected his family in the process.
It would seem that he did. Apparently his family took the same path his mentor Eli and his family took.
_____________________________
Avatar is my son Caleb and Leah on their wedding 12/20/09
=======================
Winner of 2010 "best in "He Says"
=======================
Our CD is available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/26/2010 7:54:06 AM
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buckifn
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quote:
I have been involved in places where other people do step up and then are criticized for the way they are doing the job, since it was not done the exact same way the previous person did it.
And then they wonder why they can't get volunteers....
You nailed it. Sometimes I fully understand why God destroyed the people with the flood. I can't help but think sometimes how much more power the church would have if the temple was cleansed from such things as you mentioned above.
There are so many churches that want clones instead of leaders. If I were paid staff I prob. would have been fired the first time I filled in as a substitute teacher in SS. :)
ppod I don't understand why the elder's don't share those duties you listed on a rotating schedule? I do many things, but not every week. The only thing constant is I try to let ppl know I am available for prayer 24/7. To me that is my reasonable service. You can't just say to someone who's son or daughter just got killed in an accident "hey it's 2:00 in the morning leave me alone".
It doesn't matter if the pastor is in town or not if someone calls me for an emergency, and they sometimes do, I am going. However, it is up to the leader to express clearly to the people what they are and are not willing to do.
Long gone are the days where I have a problem saying "No"....and don't feel a need to explain my No.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/26/2010 9:18:11 AM
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ppodmama
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@buckifn
if you get a chance, maybe you can read my blog and see this issue in more detail.
Our church grew outrageously fast after our last building project.
basically doubled in size. There were only 5 elders. I guess I would say many of their responsibilites were not biblically based, but if something was wanted in terms of church service that required knowledge of the inner church workings or ambassador-type duties, it was given to the elders without consideration of family. The small size of the elder team and the great duties heaped upon them meant rotation was impractical.
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/26/2010 8:54:44 PM
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buckifn
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thank you ppod...where do I link to your blog?
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RE: Is this happening at your church? - 2/28/2010 7:43:36 PM
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WFG
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Here is how God has taught me to view such situations-
God Condones marriage, but He would like to Ordain them as well. (For us to seek him to bring us together with the right and best spouce for us).
but mostly we don't. Thats why the rate of divorce has climbed considerably higher than rate of marriages today.
When God calls- (Ordains), a couple to be together, he will lead them as a couple. while he may lead them down diverse paths of serving him, they will not conflict with each other. But they will be best suited to work together as "one flesh" in all aspects, being God chosen.
If a couple stays strong in God leading them and thier decisions, there will be trials, but they seek God for the answers. This means they will go to thier church for such when necessary.
Christian/Christian marriges may be "Condoned" by God, but if not "Ordained", as in OT times and early NT times, the couples having chosen mates of thier own free will, are proven to have more problems troubling thier marriages, because they just aren't the best chosen partners for each other. Its much harder for them to become "one flesh" in all aspects of marriage.
The family must come first, as God had "Ordained" marriage since Adam and Eve. And God even declares a man will have to think more of the world, for how to please his wife. so, God understands, family comes first, but second only to living for and Serving him, as a couple.
Some churches are very liberal about marriages, some quite strict and others inbetween. But, its those who are Biblically based and structured in thier beliefs about marriage and teach and demonstrate it within them, who are right before God.
those who see and understand some unbiblical principles demonstrated, should bring them up, if setting an example to the congregation, to the Leadership.
God Bless!!
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