Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets to SG Concerts in Church Buildings
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Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets to S... - 10/8/2009 11:11:14 PM
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Nutty4God
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I saw a letter in the October issue of Singing News magazine where someone asked about whether SG groups should be charging for concerts held in church buildings. This person suggested that SG artists should step out in faith and rely only on love offerings for their financial needs. There were other concerns addressed, but I don't know if anyone other than subscribers can have access to SN magazine online.
What do you think about this? My opinion is that this person doesn't realize just how expensive it is to travel to and perform at SG concerts in any venue. Add to that the cost of the bus, food, church or hall rental, equipment maintenance, fees to promoters who book their concerts, etc. Also, the church which hosts the event is probably not used a good part of the week, so why can't a SG concert be held on nights apart from worship services there?
Basically, what I'm saying is, telling SG artists that they should only rely on love offerings for their financial needs is like telling an employee to forgo his or her regular paycheck and depend on the generosity of others to feed and clothe them. While stepping out in faith is important and even encouraged in God's Word, God also tells us not to "put Him to the test."
So what are your thoughta on this subject? Do you agree or disagree with anything I wrote here? Why or why not?
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 2:49:21 AM
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bobbyderek07
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Here are my thoughts on the issue,
there are people out there that say groups should just step in faith and hope that there taken care of when they travel, however what they do not see is that sometimes they walk away with nothing, many people dont understand how expensive it is for a group to even fire up a bus, i remember when we first started singing, we sang at several churches where the pastor or person directing the service would receive a love offering and then never give us a single penny! its not about stepping in faith, we make the step by going full time and trusting the lord that he will send the bookings in to support us, it is the wisdom he tells us to use when we ensure that we meet our expenses,
the one thing that really bothers me is that most of the people who say "just go for love offerings" don't have a problem at all with their pastor collecting a salary, how is it different? "A laborer is worth of their hire"
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 7:15:01 AM
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kingsman
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I agree with Bobby. Let those pastors forego the salary and try living on love offerings.
I remember Bro. John B. White who was the founding director of the Childrens Home of Lubbock asking critics who opposed "institutionalized" foster care as being unscriptural ... "Okay, how many children are you willing to take home with you today?" The answer was always "none."
I think people are showing just how cheap "and ungrateful" they are when they quibble over paying another ministry for the services they expect to receive.
If the pastor, elders and deacons have no problem with a group using the building for a gospel singing, where's the harm?
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 9:18:14 AM
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HigherNote4U
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I would tell these people to pay the ticket price if they want to enjoy the music, fellowship, and yes entertainment. The group stepped out on faith by becoming a group in the first place...now it's your turn. Step out in faith. Bless and you shall be blessed. What is the difference in you giving money to a group and then stepping out on faith to know that that money will come back to you when YOUR bills are due? Hmmmmm?
Surely, you can't argue that they should be held to a higher standard just because they are in ministry. A christian is a christian so faith is faith. Get over yourself and get off your wallet. They stepped out on faith. God provided for their needs. The problem is that you're sitting on it.
< Message edited by HigherNote4U -- 10/9/2009 9:24:36 AM >
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 5:00:22 PM
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servants
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Amen Highernote. I'm glad someone finally spoke thier mind. I have had a quartet and traveled up and down the east coast for almost 9 years now. We do around 100 dates a year and are part timers and work full time jobs. I'm doing what the Lord called me to do without a doubt in my mind. I know what our expenses are, and it is a lot. I have some good friends that do it for a living and I know about what it cost them in a years time. If you want to talk about faith, then start your own group and go in debt for the equipment, transportation, music and much more. That is before you even do your first event. Then I will set down and talk about faith with you. I have all the faith in the world in the Lord, but it is the people that worry me. You see the very ones that say the singers need to have faith are the ones that won't put the money in the plate to help us. I have yet to see the Lord send 1 suitcase of money down for our quartet. He expects his children to do that. But hey what do I know I just travel and sing for the Lord on the weekends putting my faith to work.
quote:
ORIGINAL: HigherNote4U
I would tell these people to pay the ticket price if they want to enjoy the music, fellowship, and yes entertainment. The group stepped out on faith by becoming a group in the first place...now it's your turn. Step out in faith. Bless and you shall be blessed. What is the difference in you giving money to a group and then stepping out on faith to know that that money will come back to you when YOUR bills are due? Hmmmmm?
Surely, you can't argue that they should be held to a higher standard just because they are in ministry. A christian is a christian so faith is faith. Get over yourself and get off your wallet. They stepped out on faith. God provided for their needs. The problem is that you're sitting on it.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 7:03:57 PM
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dbmurray
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I'm not crazy about churches charging admission, which is one of the issues raised in the letter. My problem with the letter is when the writer questions the faith of gospel singers who charge a fee for singing. I've never understood that double standard.
If a church calls an air-conditioning man to say they need a new unit, there is no guilt trip thrown on that man when he tells them his price. The church may shop around, sure, but it's understood that the man must be paid if he performs the work.
Yet when a church wants a group to sing, that group is made to feel guilty if they say they have a flat.
The faith of the singer is brought into question. What's rarely questioned is the faith of the church. If the church ASKS the group to come, then the church should be willing to meet the group's price...whether by love offering or from the church budget or by charging admission if they choose to go that route.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/9/2009 11:01:10 PM
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billbaileybfafan
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I have wrestled with this issue personally for quite some time. I have changed my opinion some from what I used to believe. I guess my opinion is that a church SHOULD NOT charge for a concert. I don't like the idea of going into a church and being expected to pay for a concert ticket.
ESPECIALLY if the concert is during regular church hours. If you have a special night and put on your sign clearly that there is a concert and what the admission is, or advertise it well enough locally, I can't fuss too much about that.
For me, the absolute worst thing that could happen to a church is that a family shows up to a church for the first time, maybe an unsaved family, and are welcomed at the door, not with a greeter, but with someone expecting 20 bucks to get in for the concert. This can get sticky.
Now, having said all that, I do think singers should be paid for coming. I think a church should book a group, only if they can afford the expense without passing it on to the concert goers.
A reference was made to an air conditioner guy earlier. Yes the church pays the AC guy, but they don't charge admission the next Sunday to cover it. I think it's akin to that.
Besides, the cost of a concert to a church is not THAT much. If a group charges 2000.00 to be there, and you take up a love offering, and say have 200 people and each only gives an average of 5.00, that's 1000.00, which means the church is only in it for 1000.00 net expense. It should be worth that for the free advertisement. Your church gets exposure in the community, and may snag a few new attenders out of it, plus what an evangelistic opportunity you have on your hands.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/10/2009 12:36:08 AM
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Kerrlaw
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My opinion is that the church (or whoever is promoting the event) should pay the artists their regular fee, or whatever fee they can negotiate.
The church/promoter can then charge for tickets, take up a special offering, or present the concert fee, as they choose.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/10/2009 10:25:26 AM
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billbaileybfafan
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I think negotiation is the key in this day and age. Money is tight period. No one is doing as well as they were a few years ago. Most all businesses are having to cut prices. I think this would include SG artists. I would like to hear from artists as to whether or not they are booking less dates, or having to adjust their fees to stay booked up.
There is some point at which groups have to decide, do we stay home because we can't get what we ask for, or sing for what we can get. That's the situation the company I work for is in. We are having to cut our prices, and therefore our profit, just to keep work coming in.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/10/2009 2:04:05 PM
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frog43
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In my 58 years, I have never seen a church charge admission for a concert during a church service. I have seen promoters rent church building for concerts, then sell tickets. I think that is a huge distinction. Speaking of promoters, I know of many people who have stepped out on faith to promote concerts, then lost their shirt because we the people didn't support them. I think promoters are overlooked in this debate. Without them, groups would not have an audience to sing to.
How about, instead of pointing fingers, we all do more to help support and grow SG music? Giving financially is the only area where God says it's okay to test Him.
< Message edited by frog43 -- 10/11/2009 2:42:10 PM >
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/13/2009 7:04:44 AM
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BSMM
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I believe people that think groups should come for a love offering should spent 2 weeks with their favorite group, Full/or Part time. let it be their choice. Pair them up with a group member and let them do whatever That group member does for the next two weeks. I can almost guarantee it would completly change their mind. HERE'S THE FUNNY PART, if we were to be able to actually do that, Then we COULD come for a love offering because people would then understand what it takes and give accordingly.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/13/2009 7:42:39 AM
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pastorjohn11776
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I'm intrigued with the title at the top of this thread about "Stepping out in faith." I don't know how that phrase is used or meant by any of you who have written in this thread, but I do react to the way the term is often paraded around by well meaning Christians.
When someone says "step out in faith" I would say, "Faith in what?" Faith does not work in a vacuum, nor is there power or ability in faith by itself. You can have all the faith in the world that the thin ice on the pond will hold your weight, but you are still going to get wet!
The Gospel is never about blind trust. It is about taking God at His Word, believing His promises, accepting His Word as it applies to our lives. It isn't the amount of faith that makes the difference, it is Who the faith is in. After all, believing in evolution requires great faith -- but there is no basis for the faith.
How does this relate to SG groups? Simply this: I have never found a verse of Scripture that says love offering vs. ticketed concerts. Never does the Bible say that groups should buy a bus, hire a quartet, and believe that God is going to take care of them miraculously without them using sound business and financial practices. So ... is it stepping out in faith, or stepping out in stupidity?
Now, I realize that not every group has the same ultimate purpose. Obviously, every group sings Gospel songs and seeks to minister to people. Some believe God is leading them to small churches, love offerings, and part time work.. If God called a group to that and has given them the conviction that this is what they should do, then by all means ... step out in faith. If the Spirit of God has applied certain Scriptures in your heart that God will provide for you this way, then ... do it.
However, if God has not led the group to work in this way, and they are seeking to use sound, biblical, reasonable business practices to take care of payroll, expenses, and all the other costs associated with their "business" (and yes, it is that) then "stepping out in faith" just because it sounds nice and spiritual may actually be stepping out in stupidity.
How many of us would take a job where the company promised to give us "something" for a paycheck each week, but nothing promised or certain, and probably on the small side because the company had tendencies to being "cheap." We couldn't survive that way, no matter how much "faith" we had. Neither can SG groups.
Bottom line: We need to be careful about abusing the term "stepping out in faith." Because if God has not directed a group to do business that way, all the faith in the world won't keep them on the road for long.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/13/2009 2:55:53 PM
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frog43
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Pastorjohn, the reason she used that term is that the letter to the editor of Singing News, which is what started this round of debate, used that phrase.
I agree with what you have written. Thank you for that perspective.
< Message edited by frog43 -- 10/14/2009 3:30:25 PM >
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/15/2009 1:58:05 PM
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IndianaPastor
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Ok...I have to put my 2 cents worth in here, and anticipate the fallout...but here goes. For those artists who are still willing to go for a love offering, will someone PLEASE tell them... "your stage demeanor and immediate connection with your crowd greatly affects your offering!" Why do some groups sing a sleepy lullaby right before the offering and then cannot figure out why the offering is low.
I have promoted for over 15 years now and have seen groups who knew how to "work" or connect with a crowd and those who hadn't a clue. Believe me, there has been a substantial difference in the offering plate as a result. Those groups who bring out their "heavy hitter" Whammy songs right before the offering will always do better than those who appear almost bored to be there and feel they must adhere to their pre determined song list giving no attention to whether or not they are connecting with the audience. My experience shows people want EXCITEMENT, and that will generate them going deeper into their wallets...any other thoughts?????
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/15/2009 5:55:33 PM
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servants
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Hey I agree with you on that. I can't say for sure that it is like that 100% of the time but I do know that it makes a diff. I have told the guys many times the crowd can read you most of the time and they will feed off of it. Just like when the crowd really gets into it we feed off of thier energy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: IndianaPastor
Ok...I have to put my 2 cents worth in here, and anticipate the fallout...but here goes. For those artists who are still willing to go for a love offering, will someone PLEASE tell them... "your stage demeanor and immediate connection with your crowd greatly affects your offering!" Why do some groups sing a sleepy lullaby right before the offering and then cannot figure out why the offering is low.
I have promoted for over 15 years now and have seen groups who knew how to "work" or connect with a crowd and those who hadn't a clue. Believe me, there has been a substantial difference in the offering plate as a result. Those groups who bring out their "heavy hitter" Whammy songs right before the offering will always do better than those who appear almost bored to be there and feel they must adhere to their pre determined song list giving no attention to whether or not they are connecting with the audience. My experience shows people want EXCITEMENT, and that will generate them going deeper into their wallets...any other thoughts?????
_____________________________
Thank God I'm Forever Changed.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/15/2009 6:07:02 PM
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tafkam
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What I don't understand are the music ministers and pastors who will ask you to drive hundreds of miles and then put $50 or $100 in your hand....and they do it with a straight face.
Granted this is not the norm (if it were we wouldn't have ANY traveling groups!)....I just wonder where these people come from.
More recently I've had more and more churches pressing me for a specific amount required for me to come and share. Maybe the tide is turning and more churches are starting to get a clue....
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Tafkam
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 10/30/2009 6:37:32 PM
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HigherNote4U
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I wish all groups would stop going for love offerings. Even if they can afford to, they should quit doing it. This is what is hurting pro groups and regional groups alike. Charge a minimum flat, so that it will become the norm for all churches to pay all groups a flat. There's nothing wrong with this. This way there is no question, except what will you come for? At least charge the expense that it costs you to drive there, feed your singers, and put something aside for studio time, etc. It doesn't have to be sky high, but charge something!!!! Work with me people!!!! lol
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 11/1/2009 10:15:05 AM
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robertyork
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HigherNote4U
I wish all groups would stop going for love offerings. Even if they can afford to, they should quit doing it. This is what is hurting pro groups and regional groups alike. Charge a minimum flat, so that it will become the norm for all churches to pay all groups a flat. There's nothing wrong with this. This way there is no question, except what will you come for? At least charge the expense that it costs you to drive there, feed your singers, and put something aside for studio time, etc. It doesn't have to be sky high, but charge something!!!! Work with me people!!!! lol
I totally agree with what you have said. The major problem as I see it is that groups want to sing and if they can't get a booking for a flat, then they will come for anything they can get just so they can sing. I have often had major groups tell me that it's better to come for a love offering than it is to sit on the bus for nothing. Remember one group that their flat us usually $2500.00 and up, they called me and wanted to come for a love offering. The offering was just a little over $700.00 and they were happy to get that. It was better than nothing.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 11/1/2009 10:52:19 AM
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HigherNote4U
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Yes, and I agree with you that it is a MAJOR problem. The reason why they are "happy" with it is because it is becoming customary for churches to "stand their ground" and not pay the flat. I wish that groups could stand their ground and not take the booking unless they get their flat. Coming for a love offering should not even be an option....I know that is far fetched, but it's the way that I feel.
It's like this. I will speak hypothetically, but based on a conversation with a friend of mine that owns his own business. Let's say someone wanted to pay you to bring your backhoe out to do a job for him and he offered to give you what he thought you were worth. Would you go? No, you wouldn't. If it costed you $100 per hour to drive your truck and haul your backhoe out there, burn your gas from both machines, insurance, truck and tractor payments, salary for you and any other office personnel you may have...well, you would charge the man a $100 for every hour that you worked. Otherwise, your business would go in the hole. You would not be able to pay for the truck and tractor that did the job, keep insurance on your business, put gas in your machines....or feed your family.
If you wouldn't go to a job because you knew that you would lose money, how could anyone have anything negative to say about gospel singers for thinking the same way? Did you know that groups still get about the same amount of money in a love offering that they did 15-20 years ago or more? That is ridiculus. People love the almighty dollar...well, they love to give the almighty dollar in the love offering....literally....the one dollar bill.
We need to get away from the love offerings people....like it or not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: robertyork
quote:
ORIGINAL: HigherNote4U
I wish all groups would stop going for love offerings. Even if they can afford to, they should quit doing it. This is what is hurting pro groups and regional groups alike. Charge a minimum flat, so that it will become the norm for all churches to pay all groups a flat. There's nothing wrong with this. This way there is no question, except what will you come for? At least charge the expense that it costs you to drive there, feed your singers, and put something aside for studio time, etc. It doesn't have to be sky high, but charge something!!!! Work with me people!!!! lol
I totally agree with what you have said. The major problem as I see it is that groups want to sing and if they can't get a booking for a flat, then they will come for anything they can get just so they can sing. I have often had major groups tell me that it's better to come for a love offering than it is to sit on the bus for nothing. Remember one group that their flat us usually $2500.00 and up, they called me and wanted to come for a love offering. The offering was just a little over $700.00 and they were happy to get that. It was better than nothing.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 11/1/2009 2:33:42 PM
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kingsman
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In an ideal world that might work but being realistic, these are not LOCAL events like the backhoe guy faces. If groups are working tours, with stops in several states, if there is time to pick up an event here and there along the route and to fill open time slots, the group would be wise to be flexible and to pick up churches that cannot afford to pay the standard flat. It's like the long-haul truck driver, if one had to run a load to California, UNLESS he's has a full load he is looking for other pickup and drops he can make enroute provided they don't materially affect his destination timeframe, and of course on the return trip he is even more flexible because there is no sense driving with no load and/or trailer where he is paying all the expenses because the truck payment, insurance, fuel, maintenance and other costs are constant in addition to his time.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 11/2/2009 1:51:24 PM
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HigherNote4U
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There is one man in gospel music that has it figured out....Bill Gaither. I can guarantee you that he absolutely refuses to do a concert for a love offering. Why work for free when you could be spending time at home if you ain't making nothing? Ernie Haas is practicing the same things. Remember the story in the Singing News about Signature Sound where it talked about doing less concerts and holding out for bigger concerts?....which translates to getting what you require to make it long term.
I know this is a touchy subject with a LOT of people, and I'm not trying to upset people. People ask what it will take to turn this industry around and going in the right direction. It is called paying a man his worth.
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RE: Stepping Out In Faith: Love Offerings vs. Tickets ... - 11/2/2009 2:24:43 PM
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BenHarris
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I have heard the phrase "Stepping out on faith" I suppose far too many times. I have a great deal of faith in God, and what He can do, it is faith with mere mortals where my faith begins to wane. For our group Southern Sound to travel, we have fixed expense for insurance, maintance, fuel per mile, food costs, lodging, etc. NOt long ago a nice lady from Iowa called and asked us to do a concert at their church. When we finally got around to talking money (which I simply detest doing) she said it would be a love offering and that their offerings usually ran $250-$275. The distance was about 550 miles, so at 6 miles per gallon of diesel at about $2.60 per gallon, we would spend about $240 just getting there. And this does not include the trip home, insurance, lodging, food nor a single dime for our guys to be away from families for that length of time. This is one of the main reasons we went to a booking agent (Dominion Agency). They have no qualms at all telling a promoter or pastor what is required. Lets be clear, if I never received one single dime to sing Southern Gospel, I would still be REQUIRED to do so, as it is my calling, and I would not be right doing anything else. However, I am glad that God said a "Workmen is worthy of his hire" Now, if we could just get more pastors and promoters to read that same passage we would be all better off. A pastor friend of mine in Florida asked me sometime back to list all of our expenses incurred in travel to his church. Which we did. He paid the expenses plus a love offering. I asked him about that and he said, "Until the expenses are met, there is no such thing as a love offering." Enough said!
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