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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/4/2009 1:01:27 PM
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SurpassingPeace
Posts: 1347
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quote:
It's not the same thing! This is school! They are there to learn. That is the primary purpose and with that comes failures and mistakes, hopefully teaching them by correction.
That may be your primary purpose but many kids desperately want to fit in and don't want to be excluded.
I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see either side changing their mind and that is okay. You educate your child as you see fit and I will do the same. That is the groovy thing about this country.
Have a peaceful day.
_____________________________
Karen
Proud Member of the Imperfect Wives' Club
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/4/2009 10:35:09 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1602
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The days of "school is a place where children go primarily to learn" is long gone..and has been for several decades.
Many schools today are not about learning at all...they are about socialization, bullying, indoctrinating, and political agendas.
VERY LITTLE time is actually spent on helping kids learn....our country's national test scores on a secondary grade level could prob. be achieved by a 3rd grader in Japan.
Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the 70's at least 45% of my Freshman Lit class needed tutoring in remedial reading skills....and I would be willing to say things have gotten much worse since then....a couple of years ago I took an 18 yr. old foster child to obtain his driving permit and even though he was a Senior in HS he could not sign his name in cursive.
I don't think it would have mattered if his grade was in red or blue ink.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/5/2009 1:43:43 AM
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KnowJesus
Posts: 94
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
Okay, for those of you who think this is a great idea, maybe because life is hard, what would you say to your child when they come home in tears because they are teased for being stupid? You know they are trying their best. You would just tell them, "Buck up kid, life's rough. Get over it." I am just curious.
I'm sorry I came off a little sarcastic in my pevious post about the F thingy. I don't recall ever being teased by another student for being stupid when I got an F on my paper. I did get F's and D's, too. My biggest hurt was not what the kids thought, but how my parents reacted to my grades. My own father was the one who said "You are stupid!"  After that my thoughts were, why try to do better. You can't because dad said you are stupid (the enemy had me believing I was doomed). But, thank God the good things that came from this experience, is, I learned to never say such a thing to our children when a failing grade appeared. Plus, I have forgiven my father for his ignorance in telling me such a hurtful thing. It took along time for me to get over that label. Sorry I went off topic a bit.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/5/2009 2:08:06 AM
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GlassMoonWaltzes
Posts: 2064
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quote:
VERY LITTLE time is actually spent on helping kids learn....our country's national test scores on a secondary grade level could prob. be achieved by a 3rd grader in Japan.
That's because Japan weeds out the less intelligent/dilligent kids early on (as do many of the countries that have "higher" test scores. Besides, I remember one time in high school taking one of those national test..I scored pretty high on most of it...but part of the day I was so bored I just started randomly filling in circles. Those areas I scored low in (well, DUH) I got the idea from another girl. If 2 of us did it, I would imagine many more did.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/5/2009 9:41:39 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1602
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quote:
but part of the day I was so bored I just started randomly filling in circles.
LOL I did that on an IQ test once and still scored 160.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/21/2009 9:24:08 AM
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LovebirdsFlying
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
I see the ink as differently. Let's use the chubby thing. Should we force them on diets or withhold sweets, no but a teacher should not stand up at lunch and annouce to the room, "Hey look everyone. Sara is eating a cupcake and she is fat! " That is how I see the ink thing. Do you see what I am saying.
Show me a teacher who does that and I'll show you a teacher out of a job so fast that whiplash won't even begin to describe her experience.
I wish that were true. I was a good student, as far as grades are concerned, but I still got held up to public ridicule. One of the most embarrassing episodes I can think of came in a high school geometry class. The teacher offered, as an extra credit on a test, additional points for coming close to guessing the score on an upcoming local football game. I know *nothing* about football, and just wrote in random numbers. When the teacher collected my paper and read my guesses, he outright snickered and said to the class, "Hey guys? Check this out!" And read my numbers off. Several boys guffawed, and one asked, "Who *wrote* that?" Whereupon the teacher pointed to me, then said to me, "You obviously don't know anything about football."
Maybe a teacher nowadays who did something like that would be opening up the school for a lawsuit, but in my day, it was like "oh well."
Nor did my being a good student prevent peer rejection. Red ink or not, I was still called stupid and retarded. Any mistakes I did make were especially gloated over. "See, I guess you're not so smart after all." At best, my intellect was dismissed. "Well, you may be book smart, but you're real-world stupid."
So it's hard for me to sympathize with "self esteem problems" caused by too much red ink on the papers. I got almost none, and would have traded places with them any day.
Hmmm. Something just occurred to me. Maybe I really am "real-world stupid," as I was told. It never entered my mind to write down the wrong answers, so the kids would stop hating me for good grades. I probably should have done that.
_____________________________
The one who KNOWS me best, LOVES me most
------Bill & Gloria Gaither
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/21/2009 10:50:53 PM
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ladioffaith
Posts: 3435
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In a business where we proof each other's stuff all the time ... my boss, who is older than me, has huge issues with red ink. Probably because of somebody with a nasty attitude. However, I prefer red because then I can see what I wrote. I also use it in my direct sales business. I find customers don't keep red pens.
_____________________________
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save.
He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with
his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zeph. 3:17
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 10:20:40 AM
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WasLostAmFound
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I am in a business where I use red to check drawings. I have found that the younger folks really have issues with the red ink. They also have issues when I mark up the drawings, and think I am being "unfair". Well, I am checking drawings that will be used to build ships...it has to be 100% right 100% of the time.
Since the "touchy feely" at school, they openly resent the red ink, and do not understand that it is customary in my line of work to use certain colors for certain reasons...yellow means correct, red means incorrect, blue means a side note (please read, but don't implement), etc.
This new sensitivity is all fine and good, right up until these kids hit the real world where the truth is, nobody cares about their feelings, their self-esteem...it's all about productivity, doing a thorough, correct job.
_____________________________
Formerly known as NotDoneYet...but...God had other plans!!!! My new blog... http://retirednavywife.wordpress.com/
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 11:00:00 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 498
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
This new sensitivity is all fine and good, right up until these kids hit the real world where the truth is, nobody cares about their feelings, their self-esteem...it's all about productivity, doing a thorough, correct job.
Thank you NDY, thank you.
Next thing you know it's gonna be green ink or yellow ink or black ink no one likes.
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 11:08:23 AM
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heremainsfaithful
Posts: 1137
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Notdone, you make a good point. My H teaches at a university, and his students don't seem to be able to do anything by themselves, they whine "that's not fair" at the drop of a hat, and the loudly and disrespectfully argue with professors. I would never have done that when I was in college.
This problem stems in part because we K-12 teachers (especially us elementary) have bought into the hippie psychobabble to the point of the ridiculous. Now, if a student misbehaves we are supposed to find a way to correct them so that no one else can see. We can't write names on the board because it will damage their self-esteem. We can't separate them from the ret of the class because it is ostracizing. We can't make them write sentences because it will make them hate writing. We can't have in-school suspension because they will miss instruction. So how exactly do you teach a class of 28 when 3 are bouncing off the walls, 4 are on IEP's, 2 are on meds, and 3 are gifted? And now we worry about what color pens we use? hen exactly do our kids learn that actions have consequences, people make mistakes, and not everybody's drawing wins the art contest? What do they first time they get passed over for a promotion, say it's not fair and ask Daddy to call the superintendent?
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 2:50:45 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1295
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quote:
Notdone, you make a good point. My H teaches at a university, and his students don't seem to be able to do anything by themselves, they whine "that's not fair" at the drop of a hat, and the loudly and disrespectfully argue with professors. I would never have done that when I was in college.
This problem stems in part because we K-12 teachers (especially us elementary) have bought into the hippie psychobabble to the point of the ridiculous. Now, if a student misbehaves we are supposed to find a way to correct them so that no one else can see. We can't write names on the board because it will damage their self-esteem. We can't separate them from the ret of the class because it is ostracizing. We can't make them write sentences because it will make them hate writing. We can't have in-school suspension because they will miss instruction. So how exactly do you teach a class of 28 when 3 are bouncing off the walls, 4 are on IEP's, 2 are on meds, and 3 are gifted? And now we worry about what color pens we use? hen exactly do our kids learn that actions have consequences, people make mistakes, and not everybody's drawing wins the art contest? What do they first time they get passed over for a promotion, say it's not fair and ask Daddy to call the superintendent?
And this is what we are teaching our future generation of leaders! We have forgone any sense of accountability because it might be "damaging".....
For goodness sake, let's not correct our children when they reach for the hot stove because it just might damage their self esteem, instead, we should just let them burn their hands??????
Again, we are raising a bunch of kids with no sense of accountability or responsibility because we would rather them have a "good sense of self" while children and let them fail miserably when they reach adulthood.
How very very sad for them and for us when they begin running this country.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 6:31:33 PM
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WasLostAmFound
Posts: 585
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I think I'll continue to use my red ink. If they can't handle it, it's not my problem. At least I'm nice...I remember in the days of being a young designer when my senior wouldn't bother marking up the print, he'd just rip it to shreds in front of me and say 'try again'...
But yeah, now you have to be all diplomatic about things...
_____________________________
Formerly known as NotDoneYet...but...God had other plans!!!! My new blog... http://retirednavywife.wordpress.com/
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 7:48:29 PM
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garsyt
Posts: 1934
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From: the bottom of the laundry basket
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I don't have a problem with the use of red ink to correct my kid's school work. I would have a problem with a situation like this:
quote:
I wish that were true. I was a good student, as far as grades are concerned, but I still got held up to public ridicule. One of the most embarrassing episodes I can think of came in a high school geometry class. The teacher offered, as an extra credit on a test, additional points for coming close to guessing the score on an upcoming local football game. I know *nothing* about football, and just wrote in random numbers. When the teacher collected my paper and read my guesses, he outright snickered and said to the class, "Hey guys? Check this out!" And read my numbers off. Several boys guffawed, and one asked, "Who *wrote* that?" Whereupon the teacher pointed to me, then said to me, "You obviously don't know anything about football."
Maybe a teacher nowadays who did something like that would be opening up the school for a lawsuit, but in my day, it was like "oh well."
Nor did my being a good student prevent peer rejection. Red ink or not, I was still called stupid and retarded. Any mistakes I did make were especially gloated over. "See, I guess you're not so smart after all." At best, my intellect was dismissed. "Well, you may be book smart, but you're real-world stupid."
So it's hard for me to sympathize with "self esteem problems" caused by too much red ink on the papers. I got almost none, and would have traded places with them any day.
If ANY teacher did this to one of my children I can assure you I would most certainly would be at the school having words with the administration AND that teacher. Now I'm normally really supportive of teachers, but belittling someone for any reason is wrong.
There are ways to correct a child's thinking and mistakes without public humiliation.
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
"And I usually agree with Garsy, so I'll be quiet now." Stellaluna - July 2010
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/22/2009 10:56:56 PM
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WasLostAmFound
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garsyt,
I agree with you, but it's at the point where ANY red ink is considered "humiliation".
Now, as a 40-something senior designer at a large shipbuilding company, part of my job is to check drawings...and the baby-designers get SERIOUSLY upset at ANY red ink on their check prints...they will argue with me over and over, refuse to read the standards, and think that anything they put down should just about be framed and put on the walls...they will argue with me, with the other drawing reviewers, etc. I can't tell them exactly what I think of their lack of ability, and usually end up just correcting the stuff myself to avoid the conflict and the next "meeting" with my big boss explaining that I don't mean anything personally, but why don't these young ones know what they're doing??
I'm seriously fed up with the "self-esteem" thing...
_____________________________
Formerly known as NotDoneYet...but...God had other plans!!!! My new blog... http://retirednavywife.wordpress.com/
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 5:41:02 AM
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LovebirdsFlying
Posts: 103
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Thank you for the support, Garsyt.
Cry-babies over red ink.... bah. If they don't want their papers marked up, then they should put down the correct answers.
_____________________________
The one who KNOWS me best, LOVES me most
------Bill & Gloria Gaither
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 12:42:22 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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I definitely agree that teachers should be as kind and tactful as possible. I would never want to embarrass or humiliate a child. But our hands have become so tied. It is so easy to slam public education when you haven't spent every day in the classroom. I would say that 95% of the teachers I have worked with care deeply about their students and about excellence.
And yes, if a teacher publicly embarrassed my kid, I'd be up at that school in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure that discreet marking of a paper with red ink and handing it back to the student in a non-threatening manner qualifies as that.
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 12:58:49 PM
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garsyt
Posts: 1934
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quote:
And yes, if a teacher publicly embarrassed my kid, I'd be up at that school in a heartbeat. I'm just not sure that discreet marking of a paper with red ink and handing it back to the student in a non-threatening manner qualifies as that.
And I agree.
My son, a 5th grader has a teacher that seems to be in love with her red pen. She uses it A LOT. She's been teaching at our school for 2 years now. And the stuff she writes on their returned papers is not always all bad. She comments on where they've done well and even offers genuine encouragement via her red pen. In that classroom, the kids have learned that the red markings don't always mean they've got something wrong, but they may just have done something right as well and that some of the red markings are areas they need to work on.
NDY - you are working with adults - Treat them as such. They continue to perform poorly at the job they were hired for - then perhaps a confrontation is what is needed. In most industries and jobs, if you can't perform the task you were hired to do then you don't work there for long and in this economy there are likely several others just waiting for that job. If I were you - I'd consider reverting to what your senior designer did to you a few times and then revert back to the red pen. I have a feeling they would much prefer the red pen over having their design shredded!
Blessings,
Garsy
_____________________________
"And I usually agree with Garsy, so I'll be quiet now." Stellaluna - July 2010
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 1:02:34 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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From: Alabama
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That is an excellent way to deal with the red ink thing! If the ink writes compliments as well as suggestions or corrections, then not only does it not signify a negative all the time, but other kids don't know what is on the paper - it could be a good thing! I am sharing this! Thanks Garsyt!
_____________________________
Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 1:09:00 PM
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aprilshowers12
Posts: 932
Joined: 4/18/2005
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quote:
I wish that were true. I was a good student, as far as grades are concerned, but I still got held up to public ridicule. One of the most embarrassing episodes I can think of came in a high school geometry class. The teacher offered, as an extra credit on a test, additional points for coming close to guessing the score on an upcoming local football game. I know *nothing* about football, and just wrote in random numbers. When the teacher collected my paper and read my guesses, he outright snickered and said to the class, "Hey guys? Check this out!" And read my numbers off. Several boys guffawed, and one asked, "Who *wrote* that?" Whereupon the teacher pointed to me, then said to me, "You obviously don't know anything about football."
quote:
And yes, if a teacher publicly embarrassed my kid, I'd be up at that school in a heartbeat.
I worked at DD's middle school a couple of years ago. My DD is a great student, well liked by teachers, staff and kids. There was an art teacher that was a *famous* cartoonist, he was horrible with the kids. Because the kids realized that this guy was just using teaching as a filler job between gigs they were not always well behaved in his class but he would get crazy in the class yelling and stuff. He had been put on notice that he needed to watch his P's and Q's because of complaints from kids and parents.
Anyway, one day I guess some boys were being difficult and the class started laughing. So, he had all the kids turn and face the wall of the room. DD was looking down at her lap and he said to her M what are you doing, she said nothing. When she gets nervous she grins, it drives me crazy but as her mom I know this. He as her teacher would not know this, so she kind of grins but is trying not to because she knows he is already angry over the laughing. He says to her M are you laughing at me. She says, No, sir. When I get nervous this happens. He then starts yelling at her that she is a disappointment to him, that she used to be his best and favorite student and now she is just like all the other kids. She bursts into tears for the rest of the class. Her friends all come to her rescue at the bell telling her it is ok that he was wrong, hugging her and telling will be ok.
Three kids went to the guidance counselor and a couple come to my office and told me. I went to the nurse to ask her to cover my desk, she said why? I said because I have to go be a mom.  I went to the Vice-principal and said, I never do this and I know the right way is to make an appointment but I need to be a mom right now. She said what happened, so I told her. She said it would be taken care of. The teacher was fired by the end of the day. The kids to this day say that I got Mr. X fired. I tell them he got himself fired and that it was not just making M cry, it was all of his actions leading up to that. (He had also given the kids straight edge razors for a project and never collected or counted them at the end of class a week before.) 
_____________________________
ConfessionsofaProverbs31Wannabe
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/23/2009 8:11:05 PM
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WasLostAmFound
Posts: 585
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quote:
NDY - you are working with adults - Treat them as such. They continue to perform poorly at the job they were hired for - then perhaps a confrontation is what is needed. In most industries and jobs, if you can't perform the task you were hired to do then you don't work there for long and in this economy there are likely several others just waiting for that job. If I were you - I'd consider reverting to what your senior designer did to you a few times and then revert back to the red pen. I have a feeling they would much prefer the red pen over having their design shredded!
I WISH I could...I once told a young lady that perhaps she'd benefit from a course in reading comprehension and ended up in the manager's office. Yes, even in industry it's all touchy-feely.
I go NUTS at the garbage they are trying to pass off, even with the latest "First Time Quality" baloney that the company is spewing...however, I can't do a thing to anyone other than go to their supervisor, who will find a thousand excuses for their sub-par performance. Those of us who raise cain about the crummy work are considered trouble makers...
Ahhh well...I have my red pens (that are in plentiful supply downstairs in our "vault") and continue to use them!!!
NDY
_____________________________
Formerly known as NotDoneYet...but...God had other plans!!!! My new blog... http://retirednavywife.wordpress.com/
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RE: Red Ink Hurts Self Esteem? - 11/25/2009 2:53:03 PM
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RainbowSkies
Posts: 559
Joined: 2/28/2007
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Ok, I have been staying out of this thread because I am torn. I believe that people should EARN their grades and the teacher has to correct the papers somehow so the student can easily see what is wrong and what isn't. BUT at the same time, when you get a paper with red MARKER all over it, then that might be a bit too much. I think that if you do fail a paper, then you failed and you need to know that. I don't believe that we need to be more watchful of the kids feelings rather than their success. How are they supposed to succeed if they don't know what it is like to fail? Every kid gets a bad paper here and there and some kids more than others, but it isn't the responsibility of the teacher to make sure feelings aren't hurt by simply grading the paper. Kids need to learn that in life, you don't always win and that sometimes you have to just take what you get and learn from it. That may be just better study habits or realizing that you can't do it and that you need to ask for help. There are so many ways to go with this question that I really don't know where to take it so that is my opinion.
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