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Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 5:05:48 PM
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teacher1982
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i.e. - is it okay for a layman of the church to go visit someone who is sick at home and give them unleavened bread and wine, read the scriptures, and pray with him? In other words, give him the sacrament?
I always thought it should be administered by a minister/pastor/preacher (or priest if Catholic). I actually never thought about it before a particular situation happened recently and it made me wonder.
What do you all think?
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 5:10:05 PM
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davelinde
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any believer can celebrate communion with any other believers... they don't even need to be sick. any believer can baptize any new believer too.
The Bible defines elders but does not give them exclusive responsibility for communion and baptism. At least no where I can find it.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 6:48:52 PM
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Kat_D
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What Dave said.
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"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 6:55:39 PM
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rcjames
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I agree with the above post, though many groups do not.
I encourage the folks at my Church to do family communion at home on a regular basis.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:05:16 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
i.e. - is it okay for a layman of the church to go visit someone who is sick at home and give them unleavened bread and wine, read the scriptures, and pray with him? In other words, give him the sacrament?
I always thought it should be administered by a minister/pastor/preacher (or priest if Catholic). I actually never thought about it before a particular situation happened recently and it made me wonder.
What do you all think?
Greetings
quote:
is it okay for a layman of the church to go visit someone who is sick at home and give them unleavened bread and wine, read the scriptures, and pray with him? In other words, give him the sacrament?
Absolutely NOT
It is for believers... if one goes to visit someone who is sick at home, this someone better be a believer ,
= 1Co 10:17
For we, though many, are one bread and one body;(= believers)….>for we all partake of that .....one bread .
If not that someone will mistake the sacrament…. because they are "unworthy
1Co 11:29 - Show Context
For he who eats and drinks in an "unworthy manner" =(not believing) eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning .....the Lord's…. body.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:11:29 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
any believer can celebrate communion with any other believers... they don't even need to be sick. any believer can baptize any new believer too.
The Bible defines elders but does not give them exclusive responsibility for communion and baptism. At least no where I can find it.
This has always been my position. Years ago, when I was leading a singles group, we got into big trouble for planning a communion within the group. Apparently the pastor at the time had a big problem with it.
I never understood that - limiting communion to only certain people and circumstances from within the body seems to be antiithetical to the very word "communion".
From a Catholic perspective, I guess I can get my head around the logic, but not really from a protestant point of view. Seems like a bit of a catholiciziation (is that a word?) of protestantism to me.
Would be interesting to get someone's point of view from the opposite side though. I'm thinking it has to do with having some mechanism in place to make sure that those taking communion are actually entitled to do so.
_____________________________
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:17:55 PM
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bolt.
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Any believer can share communion with any other believer, or one believer can even do it alone.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:26:08 PM
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MrFribbles
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The only requirement I see for the sacraments is that those involved be believers. I don't see any requirements of position, ordination, or anything else. So, assuming the person being visited was a fellow Christian, I don't think there would be anything even remotely wrong about it.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:26:53 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
any believer can celebrate communion with any other believers... they don't even need to be sick. any believer can baptize any new believer too.
The Bible defines elders but does not give them exclusive responsibility for communion and baptism. At least no where I can find it.
This has always been my position. Years ago, when I was leading a singles group, we got into big trouble for planning a communion within the group. Apparently the pastor at the time had a big problem with it.
I never understood that - limiting communion to only certain people and circumstances from within the body seems to be antiithetical to the very word "communion".
From a Catholic perspective, I guess I can get my head around the logic, but not really from a protestant point of view. Seems like a bit of a catholiciziation (is that a word?) of protestantism to me.
Would be interesting to get someone's point of view from the opposite side though. I'm thinking it has to do with having some mechanism in place to make sure that those taking communion are actually entitled to do so.
Greetings
quote:
I'm thinking it has to do with having some mechanism in place to make sure that those taking communion are actually entitled to do so.
Its not actually an entitlement... its a safe guard..
When Paul mentioned ......he who eats and drinks in an "unworthy manner" eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning .....The Lord's…. body.
Think of that judgment as coming into an agreement and ... if one is not a believer who has not come into agreement with Christ by discernment of the body of the Lord, which was broken FOR US
... Then by taking the sacrament in an "unworthy manner" they come into agreement with sickness... =not healing
The Lords supper… if we look at the bigger picture... The Lords supper forms an agreement
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 7:35:18 PM
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teacher1982
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Sorry. I didn't think to mention that the sick person is a very devout Christian. He is dying at home of Stage 4 cancer and under Hospice care. I thought perhaps the pastor should have gone there and given it to him, but I'm not judging at all. I saw pictures and it was a blessing to me. As I said, I never thought of it before and it made me wonder what ministers thought about it. The sick man is very humble and a true warrior for the Lord. We are all still praying for a miracle.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 8:06:33 PM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
Sorry. I didn't think to mention that the sick person is a very devout Christian. He is dying at home of Stage 4 cancer and under Hospice care.
So BY ALL MEANS go celebrate communion with him. I mean... if every believer who knows him too a few hours to go do that... even if it meant he celebrated communion 4 times a day for weeks on end!! Can you imagine a more encouraging thing to do?
As already noted, communion is for believers (you already established that it the case) and NONE are biblically precluded from organizing it.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 8:57:09 PM
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manhattan42
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
i.e. - is it okay for a layman of the church to go visit someone who is sick at home and give them unleavened bread and wine, read the scriptures, and pray with him? In other words, give him the sacrament?
Is it okay?
Maybe yes.
Maybe no.
It would depend upon the circumstances.
For example, 'communion' is not something meant to be personal, it is something meant to be public...celebrated with the entire Body of Believers in part to demonstrate our Oneness with each other because of our Oneness with Jesus Christ.
Going forth as a lay minister with the full blessing of that local Body and it's Christ appointed leadership would be fine....
Thinking one can simply just go and deliver 'communion' and act as a minister without being sent forth by those in authority is probably wrong, and could demonstrate a lack of 'communion' on the part of the lay minister with the Body.
That said, Jesus taught His Apostles not to reject those who cast out demons in His name or tried to heal the sick in His Name and who may not have been part of His inner circle....
But Jesus' plan was to personally and specifically train, counsel and disciple only the 12...and out of the 12....even more specifically train counsel and disciple Peter John and James for their even more specialized roles in His Church.
While it may not be 'wrong' for a lay person to administer sacraments, it also may not be Christ's plan for that person to be adminstering those sacraments in the first place....whatever His reasons.
Can a layman administering the sacraments deliver God's grace to those who recieve them by faith?
Absolutely.
But only as those who might 'mimic' what those actually charged by Christ with authority....without knowledge and without authority as a chosen repesentative of Christ Himself.
So be careful.
For greater is the judgement on those who minister, and especially on those who might just be ministering without the Lord's consent...
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 9:23:22 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
'communion' is not something meant to be personal, it is something meant to be public...celebrated with the entire Body of Believers in part to demonstrate our Oneness with each other because of our Oneness with Jesus Christ.
So you don't celebrate the Lord's supper unless every single Christian on the planet is there with you?
quote:
Going forth as a lay minister with the full blessing of that local Body and it's Christ appointed leadership would be fine....
Thinking one can simply just go and deliver 'communion' and act as a minister without being sent forth by those in authority is probably wrong
Where in Scripture does it say that someone needs someone else's authority to deliver the Lord's supper?
Furthermore, where in Scripture does it say there needs to be someone doing the "delivering"?
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/9/2009 11:16:39 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teacher1982
i.e. - is it okay for a layman of the church to go visit someone who is sick at home and give them unleavened bread and wine, read the scriptures, and pray with him? In other words, give him the sacrament?
I always thought it should be administered by a minister/pastor/preacher (or priest if Catholic). I actually never thought about it before a particular situation happened recently and it made me wonder.
What do you all think?
What does God's word say? Does it say it must be administered by a minister/pastor/preacher/priest?
Any believing person can share communion with any other believing person. . . and should. This should be encouraged. It is the Lord's desire that we celebrate and remember what He has done for us until He returns. We should joyfully be sharing this in the believing community. The need for someone 'special' to administer it is just another manmade obstacle to the fellowship of believers.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 8:48:10 AM
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davelinde
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manhattan42
But only as those who might 'mimic' what those actually charged by Christ with authority....without knowledge and without authority as a chosen repesentative of Christ Himself.
For sure it's not something to go imitate without understanding. However if you have sufficient understanding to take communion you have sufficient understanding to administer communion with another believer. There's nothing extra to know.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 10:15:39 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manhattan42
For example, 'communion' is not something meant to be personal, it is something meant to be public...celebrated with the entire Body of Believers in part to demonstrate our Oneness with each other because of our Oneness with Jesus Christ.
Didn't Jesus say, "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst"?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 10:48:05 AM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
any believer can celebrate communion with any other believers... they don't even need to be sick. any believer can baptize any new believer too.
The Bible defines elders but does not give them exclusive responsibility for communion and baptism. At least no where I can find it.
Agreed...adding there is an importance to "fencing" the table, meaning a clear understanding that the table is only for believers and of course, not partaking in an unworthy manner.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 11:38:10 AM
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BelleWeather
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
any believer can celebrate communion with any other believers... they don't even need to be sick. any believer can baptize any new believer too.
The Bible defines elders but does not give them exclusive responsibility for communion and baptism. At least no where I can find it.
This has always been my position. Years ago, when I was leading a singles group, we got into big trouble for planning a communion within the group. Apparently the pastor at the time had a big problem with it.
I never understood that - limiting communion to only certain people and circumstances from within the body seems to be antithetical to the very word "communion".
From a Catholic perspective, I guess I can get my head around the logic, but not really from a protestant point of view. Seems like a bit of a catholiciziation (is that a word?) of protestantism to me.
Would be interesting to get someone's point of view from the opposite side though. I'm thinking it has to do with having some mechanism in place to make sure that those taking communion are actually entitled to do so.
Roman Catholics (Western Rite) believe the Sacraments are effective because the priest acts "in the person of Christ."
Eastern Rite Orthodox Catholics (I am Russian Orthodox) teach that the material elements of bread, wine, water, chrism, ect, become grace-filled by the calling of the Holy Spirit (epiklesis). In Orthodoxy, that individual traditionally is the priest. We recognize there are times of dire need, and there are provisions for the lay person to pray and bless in those circumstances. We are taught those ministrations. We do not imitate or mimic the rituals and traditions. That is considered exceptionally disrespectful to God.
As LoyalGypsy said it so well:quote:
Its not actually an entitlement... its a safe guard..
When Paul mentioned ......he who eats and drinks in an "unworthy manner" eats and drinks
judgement to himself, not discerning .....The Lord's.... body
For a layperson to act in a less than scrupulous manner (I am not suggesting this was the case in the OP), in the administration of the Sacraments, would be an egregious sin.
Teacher1982, why was a pastor unavailable to administer Holy Communion to this dying Christian?
That is much more shocking to me.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 12:39:38 PM
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teacher1982
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I do not know the circumstances and or even if the pastor was called. The dying man's son-in-law asked him if he would like to receive the sacrament and he said yes, so they did. In the pictures, it looked as though only the sick man, his son-in-law, and the wife was there, plus the person taking the pictures. There could have been many more in the house. My personal opinion is that the son-in-law thought of it and just did it without consulting with the pastor. I am sure that our pastor would have gone there had he been asked to. (on another subject, the son-in-law is double married and desires a position in church, but our pastor told him that he did not qualify. However, the young man does try to get up and attempt to "preach" on occasion. That bothers me, but like I said, it's another topic altogether).
We all love the sick man and are praying for a miracle. It is so sad to see someone suffer like he is doing. It appears that the ceremony was a blessing to everyone there and gave comfort to the sick man, so I guess it was just fine to do.
I was just curious because I had never even thought of it before and wondered what ministers thought.
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 12:41:37 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
administer
Do we hear this word? Administer?
Where does the Lord Jesus speak of this type of action in His body? No, He was the one who took the towel and washed the feet of the men He loved and fellowshiped with.
Don't we understand this kind of love? this kind of humility? this kind of servanthood?
We're not 'administering' communion. That's a worldly, top down, ritual of man.
We're sharing in love what our Lord has done for us. Oh, do we need to know Jesus and understand why He died and what He lives to give us.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 12:47:25 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
...We're not 'administering' communion...
Reading the Gospel account, Jesus took bread, broke it, explained what it represented, then administered it. The He took the cup, explained what it represented and administered it. It has thus been administered by someone ever since.
< Message edited by Eutychus -- 11/10/2009 12:53:38 PM >
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Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 1:28:27 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
...We're not 'administering' communion...
Reading the Gospel account, Jesus took bread, broke it, explained what it represented, then administered it. The He took the cup, explained what it represented and administered it. It has thus been administered by someone ever since.
While it is true that in the first doing of communion, Jesus explained it. As believers, we are to remind ourselves of what Christ did and the significance His sacrifice has for us. That is the point of the doing. And if you are sharing with someone new to the faith, then an 'explanation' is in order. But for the believing community, the sharing should be a mutual remembering and thankfulness.
The 'administering' is still an invention of man and not what Jesus was intending at all. He was showing us how to remember. . . and we take the 'action' and place it above the act. A similar thing is the praying of the Lord's prayer. . . it's a pattern for what we are to share in but not the actual words we are to pray.
Yes, any true fellowship around Jesus will also bring judgment to ourselves if we are in need. Can we not trust the Holy Spirit to do what He says He will do?
I think we give the Lord too little credit.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 2:24:01 PM
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manda59
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BelleWeather
As LoyalGypsy said it so well:quote:
Its not actually an entitlement... its a safe guard..
When Paul mentioned ......he who eats and drinks in an "unworthy manner" eats and drinks
judgement to himself, not discerning .....The Lord's.... body
For a layperson to act in a less than scrupulous manner (I am not suggesting this was the case in the OP), in the administration of the Sacraments, would be an egregious sin.
Actually, I take Paul's admonition as being directed at the person who is eating and drinking (as the verse says), not at the person serving it (besides, it could well be that in Paul's time there was no-one serving it, it could just have been passed and shared among the believers). I firmly believe that once the pastor has made it clear that communion is "for those who know and love the Lord Jesus", it is the individual's responsibility to take notice of that instruction, not for the pastor to "enforce".
I also haven't seen anywhere in the Bible where it says that Communion needs to be "administered" (as if someone is doing something to someone through it). In our church, though the pastor prays before Communion, it's ordinary church members who serve it. I am the person who arranges the servers, so I know! Our church regards Communion as a symbolic solemn remembrance, not as a sacrament that needs to be "administered". The pastor's guidelines for me in choosing servers is that they are church members, and that they are approachable and caring. Many times, it's the communion servers who notice when someone has a problem, as they have face to face individual contact with them, and can either place a hand on their shoulder and pray for them right there, or share their concern with the pastor later.
_____________________________
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 3:46:20 PM
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davelinde
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From: New Jersey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I also haven't seen anywhere in the Bible where it says that Communion needs to be "administered" (as if someone is doing something to someone through it). In our church, though the pastor prays before Communion, it's ordinary church members who serve it.
I'd heard "administer" as a verb for communion in common use and never read that much into it. I usually call it "celebrating" communion. I find the definition of "administer" as... to conduct a public affair, direct the execution, to supply or to serve. With synonyms including: dispense, give out, distribute, furnish. I don't see a reason to get hung up on this word at all...
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RE: Can just anyone administer the Sacrament? - 11/10/2009 3:52:52 PM
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myka
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Some churches agree and some disagree. It really depends on the congregation.
For my church, we consider communion to be something that is done with either in physical presence or associated with a local congregation. We have lay people who have been selected to take communion to certain of our church members. We also have some people who take communion to those within the community, ie. hospice patients.
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