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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/16/2009 4:26:12 PM
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W.O.F.
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From: an ignoble beginning
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Again...it comes down to a neighbor reacting in a way that was, for lack of a better word, stupid.....on about a million different levels.
First...how many trespassers do you know carry a rake?
Second....IF her son had been a trespasser...attacking them yourself if stupid...for about a million different reasons...personal safety being the first.
Third...he (the neighbor) had called the cops...he didn't need to do anything else other than watch her son. IF the neighbor had not assaulted her son...the cops would not have been likely to have reacted the way they did (her son would still probably have been arrested with charges dropped later...but they would not have been so rough).
It all comes back onto the neighbor for attacking her son. Period.
The people for whom her son was doing the raking should also have given a head's up to their neighbors that a young boy was going to be coming over to rake for them while they were gone.....because I doubt this is the first time this neighbor has gotten into their soup.....
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/16/2009 6:52:35 PM
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michele_erin
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Okay -- that makes sense then. I would think that an attorney would be able to argue these things, especially if your son has a doctor back the information up. Weird stuff all the way around. Why the other neighbor would think that raking the leaves is a bad thing is beyond me -- unless the other neighbor is mental? Should be looked into.
I am sorry for your son. This whole process is not easy for adults, let alone kids. My best to you.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/17/2009 4:17:04 PM
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cynthia
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From: Beautiful Puget Sound Region
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I agree that the attacker should be held accountable. He is a loose cannon who harmed your son. How stupid could the neighbor possibly be to accuse someone of tresspassing when they were clearly raking the lawn! The guy needs to be held accountable. If someone did that to my son, I would file charges.
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Often times the battle is the worst right before a breakthrough. In order to get us to give up, the devil wants us to think we are losing, when in fact we need to fight on to victory.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/21/2009 5:21:32 AM
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McGuinessMagee
Posts: 927
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Charity, I'm sorry your son and your family have been through this.
Yes, the neighbour should have charges filed against him. What he did is just out of line on so many levels.
And yes, the police should be pulled up about this. Yes, police face a lot of things which they have to deal with, but they are in a position of responsibility because they have a duty of care to the public, and that is both the accused and accusor. It is their job to make unbiased decisions about a situation.
And as the parent of a 14yob I can honestly tell you that your son's response, although probably exacerbated by the PTSD and TBI, is not untypical. I would expect that J, our 14yo, would have responded in exactly the same way. And as the parent of a child who has been wrongly accused I offer you all the support I can to deal with this without putting your son in the firing line.
We have been in the situation where we refused to take our son, who had not been charged with anything, to the police station to be questioned over something someone stated he had done. We decided that, while the police had a job to do, as parents it was our job to protect our son. And putting him into the middle of a situation where he would have been more hurt than he'd already been by the situation leading up to where the police were involved would not have been doing our job as parents.
In your situation I would hire a lawyer, I would have the neighbour charged. And I would be questioning, strongly, why once the police were informed by the neighbours your son was working for that your son was where he was supposed to be, that they did not charge the man who attacked him. I can understand that up to that point they were viewing your son as a potential perpetrator. What I don't understand is that they then walked away from their duty of care once they were aware he was a victim.
Kylie 
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Stephen King
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/27/2009 8:55:32 AM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McGuinessMagee
quote:
because I doubt this is the first time this neighbor has gotten into their soup.....
And that would make any sane person share what's happening in their lives with him because???
Kylie
because then you have grounds to bring charges against HIM for trespassing, etc.....
If you don't inform a neighbor that someone is coming to your house to rake, etc...and they assume it is a trespasser...they cannot be charged with anything (the neighbor) by you (although the mother in this case STILL can)....but if you tell them you are expecting XYZ..and he does what he did....both you and the parent have the case for bringing charges against him, as well as applying for restraining order to keep him off your property from that point on.
It is all about legal recourse....
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 11/27/2009 3:02:59 PM
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SteveSund
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: McGuinessMagee
quote:
because I doubt this is the first time this neighbor has gotten into their soup.....
And that would make any sane person share what's happening in their lives with him because???
Kylie
because then you have grounds to bring charges against HIM for trespassing, etc.....
If you don't inform a neighbor that someone is coming to your house to rake, etc...and they assume it is a trespasser...they cannot be charged with anything (the neighbor) by you (although the mother in this case STILL can)....but if you tell them you are expecting XYZ..and he does what he did....both you and the parent have the case for bringing charges against him, as well as applying for restraining order to keep him off your property from that point on.
It is all about legal recourse....
This is not entirely correct. If you are going to pursue some kind of course through the courts, I would contact an attorney and see what options you have.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 12/3/2009 8:05:46 PM
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davelinde
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Was your son arrested and charged? He ran away from police or just the neighbor?
What did the neighbor tell you? Did he realize what a big mistake he made and apologize?
Sounds like a really crummy situation. Aside from spending money paying lawyers, what is your goal in pursuing this? Aren't you clear of all this now if you let it drop?
I'd be curious what an LEO would say (I'm not and have no experience along these lines). I would expect that if a suspect runs they would be detained to at least sort out why they ran, restraints are part of being detained, and being searched is part of keeping everyone safe.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 12/4/2009 8:09:11 AM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davelinde
Was your son arrested and charged? He ran away from police or just the neighbor?
What did the neighbor tell you? Did he realize what a big mistake he made and apologize?
Sounds like a really crummy situation. Aside from spending money paying lawyers, what is your goal in pursuing this? Aren't you clear of all this now if you let it drop?
I'd be curious what an LEO would say (I'm not and have no experience along these lines). I would expect that if a suspect runs they would be detained to at least sort out why they ran, restraints are part of being detained, and being searched is part of keeping everyone safe.
exactly.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/8/2010 9:39:24 AM
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BamaJAF
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I've been a Cop for the last 12 years. The last five years, I spent full time on assignment in the schools as an SRO.(School Resource Officer) I've dealt with emotionally challenged youth, often times restraining them and not arresting them, for their own safety, when they were having emotional(physical) outbreaks. My job was to deal 100% with the kids! I was also a patrol officer for many years prior.
A patrolman often does not have the luxury or time of ferreting out a situation on the scene of the call like the one you wrote about. It's not our job to "judge" the situation, but to act based on law and department policy.
Lets break this down from a law enforcement prospective and trust me, one I have dealt with a thousand times and remember this is ALL speculation based on not having all the facts.:
I am driving along, patrolling my city. I have 20 calls pending, and 20 more "Followups" I have to try and get done before the end of the shift. I receive a call of a disturbance in progress. I flip on the old lights and race to the address. When I get there, I see two males on the ground. A large one holding down a smaller one. I don't know your son, I don't have a clue he was raking, I don't know the guy holding him.... All I know is that I was dispatched to a disturbance and that I have a half second upon jumping out of my car to make a determination based on what I am seeing at the time.
As often the case, Citizens will assist us prior to us arriving. I look at the smaller male.... he's obviously in an emotional and traumatic state. I have not yet determined if a crime has been committed, so.. for my safety, the safety of the larger man...and... the safety of the smaller one.. he (The smaller one) gets handcuffed and placed in the back of the patrol car. He's not "thrown" into the car...even if he's verbally and/or physically abusive. Prior to doing all this... I pat him down for weapons. I have every legal right to detain a person until I can figure out what in the world is going on....
WAIT??? He was charged with theft? Along with trespassing? Is there is more to the story we don't have?
Anyhow... (Now for more speculation)
The larger man ABSOLUTELY wants to press charges for trespassing and Theft??. He proved he's the owner of whatever property and your son had whatever property he had on him that did not belong? (Theft??) It's now out of my hands. I pull your son out of the car, search him incident to arrest and place him back in the car. I don't have to read him his rights.. I am not asking him questions. It's a common misnomer that the police have to read "Miranda Rights" upon arrest.
In my state, he would be transported home to you and cited to appear before a juvenile magistrate. In other states, he could be transported to a juvenile holding facility. *shrug*
Listen, I'm sorry you guys had to deal with this. It's a lesson in the cold iron legal system. It was not personal ( At least on the cops side) and it sounds as if it all worked out in the end.
Hope this helps...and....God Bless both you and your boy!
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/8/2010 9:57:36 AM
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W.O.F.
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I really want to thank you two former and current police officers for backing up what many of us have been telling her...that what the police did was not out of malice or harm but was pretty standard procedure...and that if she has a problem, it is with the neighbor, not the police.
And you are right...there are huge chunks missing from the story overall.
Again..thank you for your input here..and all you do and have done to help keep us all safe.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/10/2010 5:05:40 PM
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nickie18
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I'm not a cop but listened and learn about some things and I think that the rights have to be told when the cop is arresting the person. And I don't think the cop should have put cuffs on him before he knew what was really going on. And should have put the other guy in cuffs for pretty much harrassing the boy.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/10/2010 6:13:05 PM
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hnt
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My son is 13 - a year younger than the boy in question.
If my son was raking while looking over a fence at horses - and some strange man he didn't know approached him threatening in that fashion?
I have to wonder if he would RUN as well! I'm sure it scared him to death!
While I can understand the police were going on what information they had, and approaching a strange circumstance - the neighbor needs to be spoken to, and charges filed.
It may not happen THAT day, but it certainly needs to happen. You shouldn't have to send out a bulletin to the neighbors that someone is coming over to help rake. A thief generally isn't going to stand around and watch horses with a rake in their hand either I wouldn't think. While I can appreciate the neighbor wanting to know why a stranger is in his neighbors yard - a call to the police should be fine enough to deal with it. You watch the kid of course until the police arrive, but going over and threatening to kick butt? That's a loose cannon.
The whole ordeal wouldn't have gone down as it did if the neighbor had acted rationally.
I'm so sorry about what happened, and I hope your son will be alright. The neighbor needs to be horsewhipped!
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Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/11/2010 3:36:48 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1794
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hnt
My son is 13 - a year younger than the boy in question.
If my son was raking while looking over a fence at horses - and some strange man he didn't know approached him threatening in that fashion?
I have to wonder if he would RUN as well! I'm sure it scared him to death!
While I can understand the police were going on what information they had, and approaching a strange circumstance - the neighbor needs to be spoken to, and charges filed.
It may not happen THAT day, but it certainly needs to happen. You shouldn't have to send out a bulletin to the neighbors that someone is coming over to help rake. A thief generally isn't going to stand around and watch horses with a rake in their hand either I wouldn't think. While I can appreciate the neighbor wanting to know why a stranger is in his neighbors yard - a call to the police should be fine enough to deal with it. You watch the kid of course until the police arrive, but going over and threatening to kick butt? That's a loose cannon.
The whole ordeal wouldn't have gone down as it did if the neighbor had acted rationally.
I'm so sorry about what happened, and I hope your son will be alright. The neighbor needs to be horsewhipped!
Amen to the underlined parts...but the parent seems to want to blame the cops....
Either way...as a mom, I would be charging the neighbor, and probably NOT letting my son work alone in the other people's yard again...ever. Even if it meant I had to sit there myself.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 5:16:23 AM
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BamaJAF
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I would assume that this boy was being a 13 year old boy and after 10 minutes not diligently working...maybe he was looking into a shed out of curiosity? Maybe he was looking into a window of the house? Maybe he had set the rake down?
It's all perception. If any of the above happened, it would raise the suspicions of most people.
Also!!!! the cultural considerations.... Where I'm from, horses are a pretty big deal. Not to to many years ago, they hung people for taking them. They also, in this day and age, shoot dogs who wander into their pastures. It's a COMMON thing folks.
When it comes down to it, you are going to have one side who perceived something completely different than the other. That's why we have a court system to unravel messes like this.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 9:27:58 AM
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phosadaud
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I'm a corrections officer not a patrol officer, but I had weigh in as well. First, I will agree that there is way more to this story than has been presented. It doesn't make sense otherwise. But, going with what was said, are we sure they son was actually arrested? Just because he was handcuffed and put in the back of the patrol car, does not mean he was arrested. With a disturbance, the police officer's first priority is the safety of themselves and the public. Handcuffing is one way to achieve that in a potentially dangerous situation - remember the officers had no information other than a report of trespassing and theft and the reporting party is physically restraining the suspect who apparently tried to get away (for right or for wrong). You may think this is overkill, but working in law enforcement will change how you see things very quickly. It's a totally different world. And like it or not, there are no halos above the heads of "good" people and horns on the heads of the "bad guys". For their own safety, officers have to be ready for anything - from anyone.
Also, as was stated by others, police do not need to read someone their rights. In fact, you may not even have your rights read to you until your first court appearance in front of a judge. They only need to read you your rights if you are a suspect in some sort of police custody (not free to leave) and they are about to interrogate you. They can ask you basic identifying information without "mirandizing" you. (name, address, etc). You can actually make it to your first court hearing in front of a judge without ever having someone read you your rights and that is legal and constitutional.
Back to handcuffing - At the jail I work at, I have handcuffed inmates involved in disturbances THEN tried to sort out who the guilty party was. The person who wasn't in wrong was then released and the perpetrator (if we can determine this) is then dealt with (moved to disciplinary housing, locked down, whatever). We even handcuff inmates suicidal inmates until we can get them to a safe area. Handcuffing is not a punishment. 
Granted, I am a bit jaded from working in a jail, but sometimes when we are very upset (for right or wrong), what we hear isn't necessarily what is meant. We all see things through our own filters: the neighbor, the kid, the mom, the officers.
And, while I am not an expert on the law, and the law will vary from state to state, you cannot threaten to kill and/or beat the living snot out of someone simply because they step foot on someone ELSE'S property (or for that matter your own property). I would certainly be meeting with the police and/or an attorney to find out more regarding the neighbors actions. Even if they don't have the evidence to prosecute, they can certainly have a discussion with the neighbor regarding how to safely and legally handle a similar type situation in the future.
Of course, as I state earlier, there is more to this story than we are hearing so I hesitate to "judge" any of the folks involved. Things just aren't adding up.
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Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 9:40:44 AM
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Sunnymom
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Just to add perspective... I know of two cases in the last couple of years where the police acted precipitously- one where a local pastor was charged with soliciting prostitution for picking up a woman and giving her a ride home- the charges were dropped, but not before his church was nearly destroyed- and another where a pastor was shot because he was helping a woman who (unbeknownst to him) was a known drug dealer- the plain-clothed police in an unmarked SUV pulled up to him after he withdrew cash from an ATM, started chasing and yelling at him, and of course he ran- and was shot and killed.
I don't want to take the thread off-topic to discuss these two cases, but I know about both on a personal level, and in both cases the police were, shall we say, too zealous- and one of those resulted in an innocent man losing his life. The police are not perfect, and they can make mistakes. I believe charity7 in this case- the neighbor needs to have his head examined and the cops need to understand that sometimes all people see is men running after them, and if they are yelling- no person is going to see the badge and the car, they aren't likely to understand what is happening,and if they get scared they will RUN. I'm willing to bet that every woman and child represented here would do the exact same thing.
So- let's be careful out there... and stop creating scenarios that obvious aren't applicable to this instance.
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Sunniemom's Survival Guide
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 2:09:40 PM
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W.O.F.
Posts: 1794
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
. I'm willing to bet that every woman and child represented here would do the exact same thing.
Actually...have been in a similar scenario...did not run. But then I grew up in a part of the country were running away from the law was considered...stupid at best (even as teen). And where running away from anyone else could probably get you shot if you were confronted......so if you weren't guilty...you didn't run. period.
that said...not everyone reacts the same way.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 6:01:25 PM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: W.O.F.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sunnymom
. I'm willing to bet that every woman and child represented here would do the exact same thing.
Actually...have been in a similar scenario...did not run. But then I grew up in a part of the country were running away from the law was considered...stupid at best (even as teen). And where running away from anyone else could probably get you shot if you were confronted......so if you weren't guilty...you didn't run. period.
that said...not everyone reacts the same way.
I'm not talking about people running from the police necessarily, but if men were running towards you and yelling, and you couldn't see who they were and didn't know why they were approaching you, most people would run. Also, not everyone wearing a police type uniform is a cop- Many violent criminals are fascinated with the authority wielded by law enforcement, and have either attempted to enter into law enforcement themselves (but were rejected), work as security guards, or serve in the military. They often drive dark four door police-type cars, hang out in bars that police tend to frequent (think Kemper) and own German Shepherds. Gacy, Buono, and Bundy (among others) have disguised themselves as police to gain access to their victims.
My kids understand that if anyone approaches them that they don't know, they are to immediately come to me.
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Susan R
Sunniemom's Survival Guide
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/12/2010 6:26:08 PM
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Nutty4God
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I'm neither a cop nor a kid, but if I'd been raking in someone's yard and someone like that neighbor came after me, kicking, hitting, yelling, and threatening to kill me, I'd run too.
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RE: Need advise from a cop... - 1/13/2010 8:48:33 AM
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W.O.F.
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I just wanted to clarify that I wouldn't run, but only because of where I grew up. Probably 99% of other people WOULD run....but was pointing out that one shouldn't assume that everyone would.
I would (and have) walked away slowly and/or stood my ground. I would not, and have not run, simply because where I grew up...that would guarantee getting at the very least buckshot in the hindquarters.
My kids have been taught to find me, or an adult they trust as soon as possible, but NOT to run...for this reason. When you run, in fear, you reach the panic level very quickly, and lose any advantage you might have. They have been taught to walk quickly, YELL LOUDLY if touched and a few other self-defense moves.
In this particular case with this child, he ran because he was panicked..which then did not allow him to think clearly when the police came onto the scene. IF he had been able to calmly address the issue (which I realize was partially inhibited by his disabilities) it would have been better. Easier said than done for most people I think.
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Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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