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ORIGINAL: Ezra

rolling:

What you are objecting to is (1) denominationalism (top-down structure), (2) clericalism (one-man ministry) and (3) a lack of the "plurality of elders" (pastor and deacons) instead of elders (including pastor) and deacons as given in the NT.

If every church followed the Scriptural pattern and did not seek for seminary-trained "pastors" and demanded that they have a "Rev." in front of their name and an "M. Div." behind their name, the Holy Spirit would indeed raise up elders from among the brethern who would minister the Word and shepherd the flock.

As revealed in the life of Moses, one man was never meant to carry the burden of leading and sheperding God's people. But when you have a paid pastorate, rarely if ever will the pastor train other men to be pastors, and thus jeopardize his position. Hence burn out.

Most evangelical churches have not realized that what they are following is the Roman Catholic pattern of only a "priest" who is qualified to interpret the Word and to administer the sacraments. The priesthood of believers is largely forgotten.

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ORIGINAL: SteelCurtain
Wow! What a statement here! You are basically saying that ANY church with a paid pastorate who has a seminary degree is not being led by the Spirit. Talk about "limiting" God and His power. Maybe Bolt can comment on that one.

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It makes no sense for anyone to have a debate with you about whether a pastor is supposed to be leading a church when you have made it clear you don't feel they should.

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You are basically saying that ANY church with a paid pastorate who has a seminary degree is not being led by the Spirit.

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ORIGINAL: rcjames

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ORIGINAL: SteelCurtain
Wow! What a statement here! You are basically saying that ANY church with a paid pastorate who has a seminary degree is not being led by the Spirit. Talk about "limiting" God and His power. Maybe Bolt can comment on that one.

Many many folks who have obtain a "Cemetary degree" would not know the Holy Spirit if He sat down across the desk from them.

Head knowledge does not a follower of the Spirit.

Thanks
RC

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ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd

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It makes no sense for anyone to have a debate with you about whether a pastor is supposed to be leading a church when you have made it clear you don't feel they should.

Isn't that like saying it makes no sense for anyone to have a debate with you about whether a pastor is supposed to be leading a church when you have made it clear that you feel that they should?

The OP decided to take a "2 year break" because some of us disagreed with his theology/opinion.

What if it's just the form and means by which many who are called pastors operate which is corrupt, rather than the identification of the role itself?

What if the Lord is more concerned about important things than this debate? What if? What if?. . .

It can't be denied that there is a pastoral role identified in the Scriptures. But what many people are used to coming out of that role bears little relation to the ones taught and given as example through the Scripture.

Wow! Another generalization. You've obviously seen some bad examples or at least feel you are an expert because of something that you have read. On one hand you can't deny the role of pastor in Scripture and on the other hand you seem to have no respect for the position. It makes sense if you are of the "elder system" which many on this board seem to gravitate to. However, you won't see me make a comment that all "elder driven" churches are bad and not led of the spirit.

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You are basically saying that ANY church with a paid pastorate who has a seminary degree is not being led by the Spirit.

What if it's true? Or what if the best that can be said is that there is a mixture where the Lord is able to move through certain individuals, at times, but mostly the assembly is lead by the dictates and traditions of men and organizations, sometimes even demons?

Isn't that the same in an elder driven church?? What makes an elder any better than a pastor, or vice versa. You've made comments about "pastoral churches" but I've been to some very, very boring services where the elders ran it. I wouldn't say they were not led of the spirit as much as I would say it was simply boring. Demons???

Most people who are caught up in the system can't accept that there are conflicts between itself and the ways of the Lord which it claims to represent, most especially those in leadership. To admit that the way that things have been running in it for many hundreds of years are corrupt would just be too much for them to admit and cost too much for them to correct.

Who are "they" and what "system" are you referring to?

The system, including its form of the role 'pastor', is more a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord than a help.

Wow, another generalization and one full of a lack of knowledge. No denomination and no system is perfect because it is filled with flawed men and women. To say that a pastoral system is a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord is completely absurd.

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Isn't that like saying it makes no sense for anyone to have a debate with you about whether a pastor is supposed to be leading a church when you have made it clear that you feel that they should?

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ORIGINAL: rolling

I've always had the responce to a short discourse of mine being 'prove what you are saying. Or what are you trying to say..explain it.'
Then if I lengthen an explaination I'm accused if 'ranting'. This smear stems from a heart of concreted bias and an unteachable spirit. I try every couple of years to test the water. I'll check back in with you in 2 more years.

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What if the Lord is more concerned about important things than this debate? What if? What if?. . .

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It can't be denied that there is a pastoral role identified in the Scriptures. But what many people are used to coming out of that role bears little relation to the ones taught and given as example through the Scripture.

Wow! Another generalization. You've obviously seen some bad examples or at least feel you are an expert because of something that you have read. On one hand you can't deny the role of pastor in Scripture and on the other hand you seem to have no respect for the position. It makes sense if you are of the "elder system" which many on this board seem to gravitate to. However, you won't see me make a comment that all "elder driven" churches are bad and not led of the spirit.

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What if it's true? Or what if the best that can be said is that there is a mixture where the Lord is able to move through certain individuals, at times, but mostly the assembly is lead by the dictates and traditions of men and organizations, sometimes even demons?

Isn't that the same in an elder driven church?? What makes an elder any better than a pastor, or vice versa. You've made comments about "pastoral churches" but I've been to some very, very boring services where the elders ran it. I wouldn't say they were not led of the spirit as much as I would say it was simply boring. Demons???

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Most people who are caught up in the system can't accept that there are conflicts between itself and the ways of the Lord which it claims to represent, most especially those in leadership. To admit that the way that things have been running in it for many hundreds of years are corrupt would just be too much for them to admit and cost too much for them to correct.

Who are "they" and what "system" are you referring to?

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The system, including its form of the role 'pastor', is more a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord than a help.

Wow, another generalization and one full of a lack of knowledge. No denomination and no system is perfect because it is filled with flawed men and women. To say that a pastoral system is a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord is completely absurd.

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I was trying to understand the point the op is trying to make because it seems to me he has an agenda and is using the argument of pastor's leading the church to drive it home.

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ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd

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What if the Lord is more concerned about important things than this debate? What if? What if?. . .

What if the Lord is very concerned with this issue? What if it's something which many just want to ignore? What if?...

Other than here on this board, I haven't heard the drum beats of protest from anyone. The Lord is very concerned with leadership and how pastors/elders are leading His church but I don't believe that He wants us to start spending all of our time debating theology either. That, my friend, is how denominations have begun!

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It can't be denied that there is a pastoral role identified in the Scriptures. But what many people are used to coming out of that role bears little relation to the ones taught and given as example through the Scripture.

Wow! Another generalization. You've obviously seen some bad examples or at least feel you are an expert because of something that you have read. On one hand you can't deny the role of pastor in Scripture and on the other hand you seem to have no respect for the position. It makes sense if you are of the "elder system" which many on this board seem to gravitate to. However, you won't see me make a comment that all "elder driven" churches are bad and not led of the spirit.

I wasn't speaking in general, but I was speaking broadly. What I have no respect for is the institutional manifestation of the position of 'pastor' because it is direct conflict of the Scriptures characterization and even my Lord's example of what the role should look like.

Broad/General, tomato/tomato Then you have no respect for the pastor himself, either. I completely disagree with your theology on the leadership model. . . and you disagree with mine.

"Elder driven" assemblies are just as corrupt as the 'Pastor' led assemblies. But elder led assemblies are more Scriptural.

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What if it's true? Or what if the best that can be said is that there is a mixture where the Lord is able to move through certain individuals, at times, but mostly the assembly is lead by the dictates and traditions of men and organizations, sometimes even demons?

Isn't that the same in an elder driven church?? What makes an elder any better than a pastor, or vice versa. You've made comments about "pastoral churches" but I've been to some very, very boring services where the elders ran it. I wouldn't say they were not led of the spirit as much as I would say it was simply boring. Demons???

Institutionally, you're right and I agree.

If any time of fellowship is boring how can it possibly be led by the Lord, unless you're saying that the Holy Spirit can be boring?

You'll have to ask your elder leaders that question

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Most people who are caught up in the system can't accept that there are conflicts between itself and the ways of the Lord which it claims to represent, most especially those in leadership. To admit that the way that things have been running in it for many hundreds of years are corrupt would just be too much for them to admit and cost too much for them to correct.

Who are "they" and what "system" are you referring to?

The them is leadership and those who love the system.

Okay, so me and a million other pastors, got it.

The 'system' itself is a little harder to define because it's bigger than a label, but I'll give you some of its characteristics.

- It has replaced 'fellowship' with 'services'.
- It has a professional clergy.
- It is divided into various sects.
- It operates and is organized like a business versus operating as a family.
- Each organization has their own logo and franchise designation.

There are many others, but this should be enough to help people recognize it. If any of these relates to an assembly which anyone attends, then they are part of the religious system.

Well, you, again, are categorizing the entire church system, pastoral or elder because, once again, there are just as man bad elder led churches as their are pastoral led churches.

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The system, including its form of the role 'pastor', is more a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord than a help.

Wow, another generalization and one full of a lack of knowledge. No denomination and no system is perfect because it is filled with flawed men and women. To say that a pastoral system is a detriment to knowing and growing in the Lord is completely absurd.

My statement wasn't general at all. It was very specific. Maybe the word you are looking for is 'broad'?

I would say that no denomination or system other than the Way, which is described in the Scriptures, is righteous because of the very nature of denominationalism and man-made systems themselves. The current institutional system itself, including the well known 'pastor' controlled aspect of it, is most definitely a detriment to spiritual growth. It's like keeping people in elementary school rather than helping them to graduate and start working themselves.

So, people like myself who grew up in a pastoral led church (with the support of the elders) is still in elementary school drinking milk "as a babe"?? I guess my 5 years of Bible College was also a farce because how in the world could a babe like me be able to have any idea of the Word because my pastor led church stifled my growth? My AG Bible school, the one who supports pastoral led churches must have done something wrong if they helped me graduate and begin working myself? All the AG professors, most whom are pastors, must have been horrible teachers since they, in turn, were also "held back" because their pastors were a detriment to their spiritual growth. C'mon, man. You like and believe that the elder driven church is the end all of leadership models and have no respect at all for a pastor or the position of pastor, even though it is mentioned in Scripture.

Steelcurtain, are you in the position of a pastor of an assembly? If so, can I ask you some questions to demonstrate what I mean? After all, if what you are doing is of God and the way which it is being done is of God then there's nothing to fear.

Yes, please do. I have nothing to fear in the way that a pastoral church is being led (by the Spirit and not a dictatorship) and believe pastor led churches are and can be thriving Spirit led churches.

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Other than here on this board, I haven't heard the drum beats of protest from anyone. The Lord is very concerned with leadership and how pastors/elders are leading His church but I don't believe that He wants us to start spending all of our time debating theology either. That, my friend, is how denominations have begun!

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You'll have to ask your elder leaders that question

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Well, you, again, are categorizing the entire church system, pastoral or elder because, once again, there are just as man bad elder led churches as their are pastoral led churches.

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Yes, please do. I have nothing to fear in the way that a pastoral church is being led (by the Spirit and not a dictatorship) and believe pastor led churches are and can be thriving Spirit led churches.

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ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd

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Other than here on this board, I haven't heard the drum beats of protest from anyone. The Lord is very concerned with leadership and how pastors/elders are leading His church but I don't believe that He wants us to start spending all of our time debating theology either. That, my friend, is how denominations have begun!

That's interesting to me that you've never heard anyone speak these things before, because I've literally heard and read of thousands who have realized these things. But these people are the ones who are ostracized and silenced, as well as those who have silently left to pursue God outside of the system.

Oh, I've heard the debate but not in the sense that you are portraying it out to be some national or worldly movement to oust all pastors. In essence, I, and others who believe as I do, are also being ostracized by those who disagree with the "system" that I am a part of. So, it goes both ways.

I would say that God is very concerned with the example which leadership is setting; whether they are called to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, or pastors. To spend all ones time focusing on this one subject is just as revealing as the one who uses the 'God isn't that concerned' type of argument to avoid dealing with the subject at all.

I don't avoid dealing with it. This is simply one of those debates that will NEVER get solved and both sides won't budge on their opinions. To me, it's beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree and move on.

Denominations form and were formed by people who deviated from the pattern set by the Lord and His emissaries for various reasons.

What church are you a part of then? Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, etc...are all heathens? Billy Graham, John Calvin, Rick Warren are all outside of God's will??

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You'll have to ask your elder leaders that question

I don't have any 'elders' in the way which you seem to be using it. But among those mature believers which I've encountered, to say that the Holy Spirit can be leading something and have it be boring is an impossibility.

So, what is the leadership structure of your church? When the Holy Spirit is leading something it's not boring but when a church sings 3 hymns, takes offering, sings another hymn, then a 30 minute sermon (week in and week out), it gets boring, unlike the church that I attend.

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Well, you, again, are categorizing the entire church system, pastoral or elder because, once again, there are just as man bad elder led churches as their are pastoral led churches.

Actually I'm categorizing the whole institutional system. But there are a great many believers who aren't a part of that system.

So, again, what system are you a part of and agree with?

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Yes, please do. I have nothing to fear in the way that a pastoral church is being led (by the Spirit and not a dictatorship) and believe pastor led churches are and can be thriving Spirit led churches.

Thank you for being so open about it. Your willingness to be examined says much about you. I hope that you won't take offense to anything which I say or ask as it's all about seeking the Truth. I'm really hoping that you can demonstrate the righteousness of your position. It would be a sigh of relief in many different ways. I'll keep my questions simple and comments brief.

I don't so much seeing myself being examined as one who is willing to debate, to some degree.

Let's start with the basics:
What is the name of your assembly? Assemblies of God
What is your position in it? Currently in between churches but I was a youth pastor
What is your calling and giftings? Teaching, leadership, pastoring. Church growth, small group ministry, team approach to ministry.
How many people are a part of your assembly? roughly 800

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What church are you a part of then? Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, etc...are all heathens? Billy Graham, John Calvin, Rick Warren are all outside of God's will??

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So, what is the leadership structure of your church? When the Holy Spirit is leading something it's not boring but when a church sings 3 hymns, takes offering, sings another hymn, then a 30 minute sermon (week in and week out), it gets boring, unlike the church that I attend.

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So, again, what system are you a part of and agree with?

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What is the name of your assembly? Assemblies of God

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What is your position in it? Currently in between churches but I was a youth pastor

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How many people are a part of your assembly? roughly 800

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ORIGINAL: bolt.

The Spirit is quenched according to the choices and the sovereign will of the Spirit, not because people have any capacity to limit God.

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ORIGINAL: WilliamFloyd

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What church are you a part of then? Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, etc...are all heathens? Billy Graham, John Calvin, Rick Warren are all outside of God's will??

I'm currently a member of the Body which resides in Lake Elsinore. But I'm not a membr of any particular sect.

When it comes to the particular sects and flavors I wouldn't say that they are heathen but definitely evidence of sin within the Body.

As for Billy Graham, John Calvin, and Rick Warren I don't know them. But based upon reading their own words I question if Billy Graham and Rick Warren even know the Lord at all. As for John Calvin, I think it's a shame what men have done with His misunderstandings.

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So, what is the leadership structure of your church? When the Holy Spirit is leading something it's not boring but when a church sings 3 hymns, takes offering, sings another hymn, then a 30 minute sermon (week in and week out), it gets boring, unlike the church that I attend.

Leadership in amongst those I fellowship with is based upon character, truth, and grace. It's not based upon title, degree, or money. Decisions which involve the whole group are discussed between all, not just those who are look to for leadership. When it comes to ministry, everyone who is in attendance is welcome to share; whether it be a teaching, some form of prophecy, singing a song, operating in the gifts of healing, etc... There is no such thing as a spectator for the most part. If things seem to get into the flesh or something is presented as truth which is questionable, usually an elder nudges things back on track. This usually doesn't take too much effort.

The 'service' which you describe is definitely boring and not of the Lord. What is a meeting at your assembly place like?

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So, again, what system are you a part of and agree with?

I described the basics of what Scriptural fellowship is like. If you'd like to know more ask away.

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What is the name of your assembly? Assemblies of God

Can you share Scripture which authorizes or condones denominationalism? Can you share any Scripture which may speak against it?

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What is your position in it? Currently in between churches but I was a youth pastor

Are you currently in the official leadership in your place of assembly? Are you a 'pastor' in your current assembly? Are you operating in any of your giftings in your current assembly?

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How many people are a part of your assembly? roughly 800

How many 'official' members of leadership are there in your assembly that you know of? Specifically those who are titled or in some offical capacity.

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Wow! Another generalization. You've obviously seen some bad examples or at least feel you are an expert because of something that you have read. On one hand you can't deny the role of pastor in Scripture and on the other hand you seem to have no respect for the position. It makes sense if you are of the "elder system" which many on this board seem to gravitate to. However, you won't see me make a comment that all "elder driven" churches are bad and not led of the spirit.

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Buckifn, don't we all have an agenda though? Some of those agendas are also on the Lord's agenda and some of them are not. Isn't it possible, even if you disagree, that rollings points are from the Lord? What if he is using the point of a pstor leading to drive it home? Does that make it wrong r invalid? Or does it just cause discomfort because it's the only thing which many people know and are willing to accept?

It seems that instead of exploring and honestly/prayerfully exploring any possible truths in what he has shared, everyone is more interested in simply shutting him up without exploration which only gives his points more validity. After all, if there is no error or anything to hide, why not honestly explore it?

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ORIGINAL: rolling

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Wow! Another generalization. You've obviously seen some bad examples or at least feel you are an expert because of something that you have read. On one hand you can't deny the role of pastor in Scripture and on the other hand you seem to have no respect for the position. It makes sense if you are of the "elder system" which many on this board seem to gravitate to. However, you won't see me make a comment that all "elder driven" churches are bad and not led of the spirit.

Please forgive me. I couldn't wait 2 more years. It may seem to you that I have no respect for 'pastors'. I'm sorry for this misunderstanding. I have a great deal of respect for pastors, evangelists, prophets, teachers, and apostles. But I do believe, after much study of the greek, not just reading a book, that the function of 'pastors' had deviated from it's original intent largely due to the seepage of Romanism and the Greeco construct of Lecturing. I already pointed out that the word tells us not to pattern ourselves after the world's form of authority. This is hard to grasp, I admit, for all we have known is 'what we got'. A top down system of command. The pyrimid construct that has always been the world's system.
I believe it was Dyotrephes who tried to 'position' himself above the other believers, that is, to command and control. This leads to arrogance and the submission and styfling of the others. This divides the body into two parts, the upper, special, clerical and the lower laity. This had not aught to be. We are all one in Christ with only One Head.
When it comes to submitting to authority, we are commanded to submit to 'one another' as far as each member functions in Christ or the Spirit.
The elders[more mature] are not to control but are to watch over the younger as a shepherd watches over His flock. 1Cor.12 gives us a basic idea on how a typical gathering should operate. If this is not a typical N.T. gathering then I am open to anyones direction on what this is decribing. I've asked that very question of many 'pastors' and they refuse to answer me back. That is telling. In this chapter I see no 'head pastor', I see no pulpit, nor do I see a sermon being preached while everyone sit quietly. Of course I mentioned this before in my first submission. I'm not sure if anyone has answered it yet. I'm not yelling or slobbering right now so I don't believe I'm ranting.LOL! God bless all.

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ORIGINAL: rolling

I wish I could say I was speechless when I discovered how he misled precious catholics...but I wasn't speechless.

I'm not talking about a 'few bad pastors'. There are a lot of truly sincere men/women that have ascended to this 'position' that is not a position but rather a 'function'. But because of translation problems within the K.J. version, this is just the way things are. If we are told not to do it, then why do we do it? Why do we maintain this 2 class system? I have taken a closer look at the 'church system' we have in concrete compared to that which Paul outlined in his letters. I see no similarity. So it's not a few bad apples I'm talking about here. It's the whole system that quenches the Spirit, subjugates Christ Jesus, and lends to the members dying on the vine.
If you threw a christian into the trunk of a car blindfolded and then carried him into a typical 'church service', still blindfolded at this point, and asked him if he could tell whether he was in a 'church' or at walmart, he wouldn't be able to give an answer.
This shouldn't be the case more often than not. Again please forgive me for sounding phlos..phyiso....you know what i mean. I find that no matter how hard i try...i'm a screw up. God keep ya.

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If you have never been a part of a pastoral led church then you cannot comment on how it is run.

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we do not make any attempt to quench the spirit, we certainly don't subjugate Jesus, and we have a vibrant discipleship program with new members attending our church all the time. Our lay leaders are wonderful and are being used in their giftings.